Ellen Thomas: Deconstructing Identity and Power

Ahead of her highly anticipated return to the Kiln Theatre following her debut at the RSC’s The Other Place, the indomitable Ellen Thomas sat down with us to discuss her powerhouse role as Pearl in the world premiere of Martina Laird’s Driftwood. Ellen delves into the psychological weight and socio-political gravity of portraying a fierce matriarch running a downtown gentlemen’s club on the precipice of Trinidadian independence. We hear her reflect on the delicate art of unearthing fragments of vulnerability within Justin Audibert’s atmospheric direction. Our conversation explores her process of physical and linguistic discovery in the rehearsal room, unpacking how the specific cadences of 1950s Trinidadian English serve as vital tools of resistance, identity, and raw survival in a shifting world.

In this captivating new interview, Ellen Thomas offers an introspective look at a legendary career that masterfully bridges the worlds of television mechanics and rigorous stagecraft. We also revisit her recent, triumphant turn on the very same Kiln stage in Zadie Smith’s The Wife of Willesden, which also gave her an opportunity to showcase her ability to play strong, powerful and complex women. What follows is a warm and personal exploration of a powerful actress reflecting on her deep structural history with the Kiln, the changing landscape of British co-productions, and the enduring magic of theatre that dares to challenge who holds power.

Driftwood runs at Kiln Theatre from 4 June - 4 July.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Up close with Palmas. Celebrating art, entertainment, and the human service. Ellen Thomas, thank you so much for sitting down the bus today. Thank you. Um, just for the, you know, it's Martina Ledz, um, debut player as a writer, but she's a very accomplished actress herself.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Um, did you find reading the script, you know, by having been written by a fellow actor? Did it have a different sort of rhythm for your performance?

SPEAKER_02 0:45

No. I admire her as an actress. So reading the script, I just thought, oh my goodness, and she directs as well. This woman is a triple threat. You know. Um, no, no, no, no, no. Um, loved it. The first time I read the play, I totally loved it, and I wanted it. It was that it was like, okay, I'm going to be seen for this, and I'm going to do the homework. So I did a bit of homework before going to the casting. And um also, it's my first time working at the RSE. It's one of the uh credits I don't have on my my biography, my CV. So I said, mmm, it's a double whammy. Let's see if we can get this job. So that was um some of the first thoughts, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Yeah, absolutely. I mean the play deals with some very dark themes. Um, you know, it has you know very gothic, you know, family secrets inside it as well. Um, how do you sort of like maintain that sort of stamina to do you know a two-hour, 40-minute play with all this geopolitics going on as well? No, I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

It's challenging, but I could understand why the RSC wanted to do it. It is very Shakespearean in its depth and breadth and characters, big, bold characters. So I could see why they wanted to do it. But um also I find it fascinating that in the play said in 1956, we're in 2026, some of the themes are still so resonant, so current. Venezuela um Haiti. Just like, oh my goodness, I don't believe this is happening. It's I mean what? It's 50, 60 years later, and the Americans in that situation all happening all over again. It's almost like no lessons learned. So, do you know what I'm saying? It's quite scary, actually. It really is. When we were reading the play in the rehearsal, we we just couldn't believe how it resonated with what was going on today, not just in terms of immigrants and families uh moving around to better themselves and create lives for themselves, not just that, but also the the war situation. Yes, it really, really, it totally was a wake-up call for most of us in the rehearsal room. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Absolutely. I mean, like the fact that you know so much has also like not changed in that time. You know, yeah. What do you think that's all like tells us about humanity and like the human condition?

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Well, history does say um when it goes left unchecked, challenges left unchecked, it will repeat itself, and that's exactly what is happening. You know, I find it it can it connects for me also with the Windrush generation. I'm sure you've heard about them. Um the Windrush generation, mostly Caribbean people, African and Caribbean people, who were involved in the Second World War. They came and they fought for the motherland, the United Kingdom. And then after the war, many of them settled in the UK, and um 50, 60 years later, they were being told, um, sorry, thank you, but um, can you go back now, please? Do you know what I'm saying? Um, a lot of them, their children were born in the UK, their grandchildren, they pay tax, all of those, all those things that you expect a good human to do. They do, and yet they get treated so badly. And I think it's basically it's kind of the same. What was happening in Trinidad, the way the Americans treated the Trinidadians. Just in fact, in the play, it says, You've been living in our backyard this whole time. The audacity of that, it hasn't changed. In fact, it's gotten worse. Do you know what I'm saying? Iran, I'm surprised um, you know, that Iran isn't thought of us. That's our backyard. Straight and foremost, it's ours. All of those kind of things. So again, history left unchecked keeps repeating itself. And I think that you know, we should we need to just keep a check now and just say, what is it? Checks and balances. Yes. Um, you know, we as a people, the global majority, will not deal with this anymore. I really do believe that. You know, we need humanity, it needs to be to reign. Do you know what I'm saying? Rather than individuals. Yeah, I just think that we again, I find resonance with Pearl in when she joins the PNM, the People's National Movement, when she joins that, it awakens this whole political side of her that she didn't know she had. And it gave her a voice. Suddenly, this woman who's just knuckled down, worked really, really hard, struggled, suffered, and everything else, suddenly joins her um uh decides she's going to vote for the first time, and keeps going to the meetings and meeting like-minded people and realizing that oh my goodness, I have a voice. I can affect change. And I think that is hugely powerful. Hugely powerful, you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Definitely. I mean, the play happens, you know, why it's on the precipice of Trinidadian independence, which is so um, which is such an event for the time as well. Um, I mean, did you see there were many parallels between you know the custody battle over ALMA and you know the wider geopolitical situation at the time as well?

SPEAKER_02 6:02

The the AMA um kind of, yes, because as far as she's concerned, she's like good citizens, she's worked really, really hard for this place, and um she feels that she should be a part of own part of it, if not own it outright. Absolutely. I agree with I agree with her on that stuff. In fact, it's not just a home, it's a business, and she's the one that's actually on the ground doing the dirty work, you know, keeping it going, and so on and so forth. And whereas Mansion is just screaming off the profits. That sounds similar to a lot of what's going on. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

I agree with her fighting for Alva totally for sure, and that's what like the title drift with as well. It's sort of suggestion, something floating, something drifting as well.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Um, yeah, I mean, like, how would you say that this like sort of like metaphor applies to you know people of Pearl's generation? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Um, Pearl's generation, they struggled, they suffered, and Pearl's generation that the people that were if I do good work, if I work really hard, everything will be okay. Uh no. Ruby, her daughter, now realizes that as well. And she's out for herself. She's going to take, she's what I call a modern woman in the 50s. She's going, she's looking after herself. She's not giving her all to the country, to the all of that. No, no, no. It's me first. I have to take care of myself first. And so I totally agree with her, you know, and I love that Pearl actually finds her voice in the play. And I hope it resonates with audiences, you know, not just African-Caribbean women, but women, particularly women, and you have a voice, use it. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes, and people died to get the vote. In some countries, people died to give to give vote the suffragettes, the suffragettes, you know, died and suffered to give women a vote. And I think that it is um we have a right to actually use that voice.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And it's interesting as well, you know, Powers' relationship with her children, yeah. It's quite a fiery relationship with a voice. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

That's that's a cultural thing. That's how you grow up. In one of the scenes, she was saying that children were left. Um I'm from an African background, I'm West African, and um, I was left, and I had some challenges with the play in the scenes where with Diamond, where my body kept thinking that this was my story, and I'm going, no, it isn't. This is Pearl's story, this is her trauma, not yours. Yours was not like hers, and so on. You had a grandfather, you were left with a grandfather who really loved you, thought you were the best thing since sliced bread, you know, showed you love and care and so on. Pearl wasn't. She was left with an aunt who beat her mercilessly because that was the norm. You know, children were not um expected to um talk back to parents and so on, and a slap and a you know, a lash were more frequent than sit down, let's talk about this stuff, you know, so on. So um I convinced myself this is not true story, so just get on with play. Yeah, yeah. Those times were really seriously hard, and it was also a little bit left over from slavery, where people were beaten rather than talked to in a human way if they did something wrong. It was, and that's left over, and it was sad left over, I think, for African-Caribbean communities. Yeah, that still lingers.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Yeah, I never thought about the link between slavery and physical punishments.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Yeah, yeah, that's what they that's what they knew, and they were just mirroring, you know, and continuing what they knew, you know, and so on. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Yeah, I was interested in um as well, like working with uh Andrea Faj as well on developing that accent. Of the Trinidadian accent, yeah. Yeah, um, how did you begin to sort of like tap into that as well?

SPEAKER_02 10:08

Well, she was very, very helpful. Um, again, because we're uh in Stratford on Avon, and um the um the people who come to Stratford-on-Avon come to the um the other place and also as well, they there was a moment when I thought that people were, oh, it's a Trinidadian accent, or I'm not going to really understand it. Rather than this story is powerful and it is really, really clear, even if you don't understand the the accent as much, the story is visibly clear what's going on, and so on. And there were times in the beginning, especially the dream previews, where we felt that people were kind of thinking of it as oh, I can't, I it's too the accent is too difficult for me to understand, and I was struggling a little bit, and all the rest of it. Um, so again, Andrea helped us with that in that please can the accent not be quite so strongly Trinidadian, at least not here. And um, she led us into ways, certain words which will give you the Trinidadian feel and accent and um and love of language because they love their language, they love they they love how they um how they construe their language, which I totally love as well, which Martina has mastered totally. Um one of my favorite lines in the play is where Pearl says, I had was to make sure and take for myself what you owe me. You know, in other words, she could have just said, I just took what was mine, what was legally mine, because I'd worked for it anyway. No, she has to go into this wonderful description of I had was to. Do you know what I'm saying? I loved all that about the play.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Yeah, I mean it's just a it's so clever when you're able to capture the essence of these characters, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

And the true daddients will come to see it and love that because that is exactly the goal. Yes, that's how my aunties all talk, yes, that's how my grandmother and mother talk. They never say things as simply as you know, ABC. They they they uh they enjoy it, I think. They they add flower to it, they make it all flowery and lyrical and all that, which is again a love for language.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Yeah, love that definitely. I feel like Justin Audebert is such an exciting director as well at the moment. You know, he's very much taken Chichester into a new direction as well out there, too. Um, yeah, what was it like working with him? And you know, you have like particular objectives in mind for what you wanted to achieve with the play.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Um well he he went to Trinidad and we were like, okay, thanks for taking us with you to do some research, of course. Um, yeah, it was an exploration both for him and for us in the same time. And once Martina came on board in terms of cultural expert, the play just took on a life of its own. It became really vivid and alive for all of us. Yeah, yeah. Because she could tell you where the story comes from, um, the people who were involved, some of it personal, some of it not. The history, she'll tell you about the history of what that happened there, and the history of Calypso and the Calypsoans who put um politics in the music to get to the people. She told us, oh, it was wonderful, wonderful. The rehearsal process was good. Really, really good, yeah, yeah. I can imagine exploring.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

I can imagine. Um, I remember um you know, a few years ago, you know, you obviously did um the Amen Corner as well, the James Baldwin play, um, during the tricycle era as well. Yes, yes. Um, I feel like that was also another piece that was very much focused on you know black oppression and the domestic family as well. Did you see many sort of like parallels between this play and that play too?

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Um, not as much. In terms of Margaret in Amen Corner and Pearl. Yes, Margaret was married, Pearl wasn't. And I think that's where the similarities stop. But then they also had, and also Margaret didn't give her away her son, and Pearl did, because that was the sort of norm in her community of you know, other members of the family raising your children while you go look for work. Margaret didn't have that, but in terms of family, strong family ties and bonds, yeah, they are very, very similar, very strong women, hardworking, and also husbands or boyfriends who've let them down. So there were similarities in that. Um, and trying to steer their sons in the right direction, um, give them a way of life that is going to uh help them. Yeah, they were similar in that. Yeah, yes, yeah, but that's about it, I think. Also, Pearl, and Pearl is not religious in any way, shape, or form, and Margaret obviously was, is um so which I find interesting from Martina's point of view that she's not really because that period women were super, super religious. You know, Sundays was church, and that's it. And also, I think if she was religious, she wouldn't have run a drinking club because you know, she wouldn't have done all things. She she says to her son, I'm no angel. And she means I've done some things and you know, lived. Um, whereas Margaret is completely really, really centered in the church, and all those um things that you have to abide by being uh you know preacher's wife and all of that. So I think they're different in in um in certain ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but two very strong women, two very powerful women. Um, and Margaret knew her voice, whereas Pearl found hers much later on. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Well, you're always sort of drawn to these characters and these strong women who are sort of struggling against the system, too.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Something about them resonates with me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. Currently struggling with the situation, the current world situation at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Yeah. Of course. Yeah, yeah. Um, it's interesting as well, you know, next year's 40 years since um James Baldwin passed away as well. Yeah, it's very fortunate to meet him when he came to see me.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Really? What was he like? Amazing, amazing, amazing man. You're one of those people. I also had the pleasure and the honor of working with Dr. Maya Angelou, Woon of a Rainbow Shaw, which was done at the Omeda. And Dr. Maya Angelou and James Hordon are very good friends. So Dr. Maya Angelou told us all these amazing stories about their friendship and everything else. And Carlos, I felt so honored and so privileged to be not in their company and listening to these wonderful stories about their lives in America and Dr. Maya Angelou when she went to Africa as well. It was just priceless, priceless. I wouldn't change any of it. No regrets. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Yeah. I mean, both Maya Angelou and James Baldwin, you know, their writing is still so powerful and still so resonant. Yeah. Why do you think that's it as well?

SPEAKER_02 17:13

It's a there, it's a lot of it is lived experience. Um, and from that, it will always resonate with people, um, globally, internationally. Um, regardless of age and culture, it will resonate. Um, yeah. And I think that's also what is what is interesting about Pearl. Um, what is interesting is that this for her, there's a few times when Martina said to me certain things were the reason why she's dealing with Mansion the way she is and what she knows about him, it's a lived experience, which brings a whole other dimension to how you play it and how you approach it. Do you know what I'm saying? Well, if it's something you've heard of, that's something I've heard of. Or if it's something you've lived and experienced, it's a completely different um approach to it.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

Of course. Yeah, yes. I feel like the other place is such a it's such a special part of the RSC. Um, I love the intimacy here, similar to the kiln as well. Um, do you feel like um the world um that happens you know in the spawn in Trinidad, you know, the precipice of um independence? Do you feel like there's a big contrast to Strafford upon Avon, or do you think there are actually more similarities between the outside and the side than we think?

SPEAKER_02 18:27

I don't think there's any similarity whatsoever. Um, in terms of um what's happening in Trinidad and what's happening in the UK, I think there's a lot of similarities in terms of people coming to uh people coming to terms with what's really happening and having to find their voice. Um things like the digital ID and things like the NHS, um, Palantir being given the contract, people are actually finding their voice now and finally saying, uh no, we're not going to do, you're not going to do this to us. You know, my health, my data, you're not selling it. You know. And when you look into the company that is being sold to, you think, whoa, don't like what I'm digging up and researching about you, and so on. So, um, in terms of that, Trinidad and the UK and Europe basically, um, a lot of similarities. People are waking up, people are finding their voice and saying, um that you can't you can't do this to us. You know, so we will be independent, Trinidad, we will be sovereign, UK, you you know, Europe and so on. Yeah, lots of similarities.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Yeah, sure. Um, I love the intimacy of um the other place and the kiln as well. Um, are you an actor who likes to look out into the audience? Do you like to see people's faces? No, no.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

There's a wall there. So whatever you're looking at, you're not looking at it then. You that's a that's a wall. Maybe there's a window there or something, but there's a fourth wall and it's there, and you are in that space. That's also what I love about the kiln and here. You're in that space, and that is your home, your room, your whatever, and the intimacy or whatever you have in there is in with in that confines of that wall, and the onlookers can make an eavesdrop and be part of it, but that space is yours. I love that, really love that. I love it. It means that you can get intimate, you can get quiet, you can get you know bold, and it's yeah, yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Yeah, that's wonderful. I mean, the last time you had the kiln was, of course, wipe a bowl. Yes, I mean, that was such a celebration of like West London identity.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

Oh, we enjoyed that so much. Um, it was a huge success for the kiln in that it was sold out most of the time and they brought it back or went on tour to the USA. And um, Zadie Smith, the writer, her first play. Um, she's so loved in America. Really, really again. 99% of the um ticket sales were you know sold. Yeah, love it, love it.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Yeah, it's amazing. And of course, I think you've worked with Hindu Luper Singhem on a few occasions now as well. Um what is it like you know, working with her when you know what keeps bringing you back together?

SPEAKER_02 21:13

I love, I love the way she works, it's very organic, it's very let's try this, let's involve this. What happens if we okay, it's up to you now, take it for all of those, which actors love that, rather than that restrictive, well, this is the way it's always been done. I don't know, let's just explore some things, let's throw the book out the window and just you know, and go for it. Indre loves doing that, yeah, and actors love that as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah, yeah. I guess I'm with the old wife, and what was it about her that sort of attracted you to this character?

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Oh, very much. Oh, I loved that I had to play, not had, I love that I got to play three very, very different characters. Um, and one of the best compliments I got was. Um somebody just came up to me after the show and said, I think you're brilliant because you did three different characters and I saw three different people who were like, Thank you, and walked off.

unknown 22:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

That was nice. Yeah, I really did enjoy that. Um, each time I came on as a three different characters, I wanted people to actually see those three different characters and not, you know, well the one that was before as well. So yeah, yeah, love that.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Of course. Um, as we mentioned earlier as well, there is so much sort of geopolitical tension um at the moment, you know. We saw you know the rise of performance at local council elections. Like there was recently also the United Kingdom march as well in London.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Um, you know, are you worried about society? You know, do you feel like plays like Driftwood can you know help society heal and bring people together? Oh gosh, I hope so.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

That's some of the things that we hope that the play will resonate with people, um, particularly families, because it's a huge family play. Um excuse me. Um I'm hoping that people take away that the situation with Pearl and also with Ruby, with your children, with not just your children, but with your children, your family, talk to each other. Um secrets kind of don't work because uh sooner or later the cat will come out of the bag. So I'm really hoping that people can find a place where they can it can resonate with them in that they go away and talk about it and say, you know, this has been bothering me. I've wanted to talk to you about it, and I have not been able to. And you know that situation that happens in the play. I feel I felt that happened, and I need to resolve that. I need to look at that and unpack it. Um, I'm really hoping that people can go away and think about that. Um, and also the finding your voice thing. Um, I'm going to vote. I've never voted before because I didn't believe in the political um situation, but now it is a voice that I have and I can affect change. I'm going to do that. Those are some of the things that I really hope that people can take away from the play. Um come away thinking that, yeah, I I can do that. Yeah, if she can do that, I can do that. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And young women, Ruby, I just hope that it resonates with them in that, you know, look after yourself, take care of yourself, um, don't sacrifice yourself for the world and everything else. No. And I remember the one most wonderful quotes, um, and I live by it. Um, Oprah Winfrey, my Angelou, Ian Levan Sant all talk about is the make sure your cup is full and running over. Um, fill yourself up first, and what runs over is what you give to others. You cannot for you cannot give from an empty cup or an empty place. So I totally live by that. So I'm hoping that people also take that away from this in that you know, um, fill yourself up first.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Yes, absolutely. I mean, for you, how do you do that? How do you keep yourself filled up?

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Um, meditate. I'm yoga. I did my yoga this morning. Um, um, I really, really enjoyed it. I do that, I do meditate. Um, that's one of the ways that I come, I center myself. Um, I love yoga in that it allows me to stretch my body, you know, um just shift boundaries a little bit, stretch a little bit, breathe a little bit. All of those things are really, really important to me. Um, yeah, self-care is paramount, um, particularly when you're doing something as um powerful as per, you know, the energy and the stamina to go through it. Um, yoga, meditation, and just quiet time has really, really helped me.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Um, I suppose you know going into London as well, you know, Stratford is a very beautiful, idyllic place. Um, how do you expect sort of like audiences in London to be thought?

SPEAKER_02 26:10

We had a little taste of that here. Um there's a lady, Elaine Grant, who organized a group of women from uh Birmingham and the Midlands, uh, and some from London to come to a matinee um uh performance and um African Caribbean predominantly, and they loved the show. It's almost like the show came alive on another level because it resonated, a lot of it resonated with them. Um there were moments when people were doing what they do, what African Caribbeans do when they're at home watching TV. You talk to the TV, and do that. What are you doing? We had a little bit of that as well. And when there were quotes that they recognized from their childhood, they repeated it. So it was just it was wonderful for us. It was like oxygen for us on stage. We were like, yes, this is exactly what we wanted. It's reaching them, they're hearing it, they're remembering, yay, we're doing all of that, and we came off on a high that day. Um, we met the ladies, um, mostly ladies, we met them afterwards, and they were just they loved it. They're gonna spread the word, they're gonna tell everybody to come and see the show. And the Londoners were also saying they're gonna be coming to see it again in London. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're expecting the London, particularly um Trinidadian groups that are gonna come. Oh my excellency, this is our country they're talking about, and you know, so that's gonna be fun. Yeah, we're gonna change the accents, they're gonna get different in London. What words? Yeah, we're gonna get very Trinity. We're gonna have to get very, very Trinidad in London because the Trinidadians are coming and they want to hear their accent on stage. All its you know, beauty and everything else, they want to hear that. So we as performers have said that right, that's it. We're gonna up the ante in terms of the accent once we're in um in kiln in London.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Yeah. Do you think you'll go to Trinidad as well at some point after the show?

SPEAKER_02 28:15

So um, that's touch wood. That would be wonderful. That would be really, really wonderful for a play about Trinidad that is so so Trinidad um to go to Trinidad and perform there. They love it.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Um, I guess that's the last question. Um, yeah, you know, what do you um having done the show for a few weeks now, what are you sort of like learning about yourself through doing this?

SPEAKER_02 28:45

What am I learning about myself? Um, I have more stamina than I thought. Uh what am I learning about myself? Um, you really all the things that I'm always really good at, you know, in terms of responsibility to a character and playing her and loving her and not doing any of the silly things like you know, disapproving of anything about her. No, none of that. Just digging into her. And also, I'm loving finding new things. You know, every performance you find something else. And of course, I never stop looking at the script. You keep looking at the script over and over again. Every day, go back on the script and finding new things, finding new ways to say something, and something somebody says about the character. You think, oh, okay, I'm gonna see if I can look at it this way and respond this way and see how that all those lovely things, the things that I like about how I approach my work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Keeps it exciting and keeps it fresh for me as well. You know, yeah, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Absolutely. Alan Thomas, thank you so much for talking to us though. Thank you. Thank you.